World Fencing League Debut: What Happens Next?

World Fencing League finally debuted with the most eyes on fencing since Paris. We break down every match, the $10K prizes, and why the tech disappointed.

The Fencing Podcast of All Fencing Podcasts.

In this episode, you'll discover:
• Why the WFL debut may be the biggest moment for fencing since the Paris Olympics and what it still needs to fix to become a real league
• How $10,000 per match compares to winning an entire World Championship, and what that prize structure means for athlete motivation
• A full match-by-match breakdown including Maia Chamberlain's MVP performance, Lee Kiefer's opening bout, and Ryan Choi vs. Miles Chamley-Watson closing the night
• Why Dentsu's much-hyped blade-tracking and 3D replay technology fell flat in live execution, and what the WFL must do differently next time

Direct Elimination is your home for honest, knowledgeable fencing coverage that doesn't talk down to the sport or the fans. Whether you've been fencing for twenty years or you just found out epee exists, this is the show for you.

The World Fencing League just ran its first-ever event, and we give you the complete recap. We celebrate what the WFL got right, call out what it got wrong, and lay out what needs to happen for this league to actually build the fencing audience it's promising.

⏱️ CHAPTERS
00:00:12 Intro
00:02:30 World Fencing League Debut... First Impressions
00:06:29 Cash Prizes: A Game Changer for Fencing
00:09:42 New Rule Sets, Tech, and Fencing's Future
00:12:53 Match 1 Recap
00:18:46 Match 2 Recap
00:21:57 Matches 3 & 4
00:27:47 Match 5 Recap
00:29:55 Match 6 & Closing Ceremony
00:34:27 What Could Have Gone Better
00:38:44 Team Format, Gambling Rollout & Marketing Misses
00:43:59 Commentary Critique
00:47:17 Final Thoughts

💬 BEST QUOTES
"if you don't have a crazy chat room on a live stream, then you're not doing it right."
"for world championships, if you win the whole tournament you get $40,000 as of last year. but that's a whole tournament. here you fence one equal opponent. And when you're getting $10,000 for one match. Yeah. Those stakes are way crazier."
"I think the real winner of the World Fencing League was Maia Chamberlain. Man. She pulled up. She balled out. She gets fighter of the night."

World Fencing League
Website: https://worldfencingleague.org/
📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/worldfencingleague

Theme song written and performed by Colin Campbell
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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:04

Oh, yeah, yeah, it's direct elimination. All right, Ari. Welcome back. This was a big week for all things fencing. Big week for us. Um How you feeling?

SPEAKER_02 0:20

I feel great. I think, you know, we won't touch on this for too much, but I had the national championship last week. Congrats to you. Member of the newest Men's Epe national championship winning team, New York Athletic Club. Thank you. Uh individually, certain things went well, certain things didn't go well. I finished ninth. I was really happy about that.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

That was a good result.

SPEAKER_02 0:40

Um, I think I fenced well and didn't go all the way. I got some full body cramps and I couldn't push through them as well as I thought I could, and lost an overtime match.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

You fenced a very good match, even with that insane amount of cramping, and it was very entertaining to watch. So kudos to you for sticking it out. Um, I had a great time watching you thanks, then fall your way through that.

SPEAKER_02 1:02

I appreciate it. But it was not as entertaining as what we're talking about today.

SPEAKER_01 1:06

It was not. Um, but also, you know, I I would do, you know, this is our platform. We we can do whatever we want on it. So I do want to shout out two of our friends who got married this past weekend. Um, congratulations to Zach Chang and Morgan Partridge. Um Morgan Partridge, uh former junior Kadesh.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

Kadesh junior world team member, probably at least five national teams under her ball.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

And Zach Chang, if you don't know who Zach Chang is, you don't know ball like that. Uh that is a that is an elite pull, elite ball knowledge required, but uh both great fencers, great friends, great people. Um I was very fortunate to be able to to go to their wedding and and see them tie the knot. So congratulations to them.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

That was a that was a hectic weekend for you. Stephen went from New Jersey or from New York Stephen went from New York to Richmond, Virginia, yep, to Boston to Situate, Massachusetts, back to Richmond, Virginia, back to New York City, and you competed in two separate events and watched one full wedding.

SPEAKER_01 2:09

Yeah. Um I uh I'm not built like I used to be. Turns out that uh met my limits there, and uh now I'm sick. So apologies to the viewers if you already found my voice annoying. It may or may not be better. It's a little deeper now. I think it sounds better. I think so too.

SPEAKER_02 2:25

As entertaining as many aspects of the weekend were, the high one thing stood out. That was the debut of the World Fencing League, which is something that we talked about on our last episode, and we just want to follow up. That was a preamble. Yeah, now it's a recap. So, Steven, where do we start?

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Well, maybe we we start from the beginning. Um, what was it like pulling up that live stream for you? So I remember I was showering post-event and I had it up. Um, and it was first of all, I just want to say congratulations to all the athletes and everyone involved in the World Fencing League. Yeah, that was an incredible lift and the most eyes we've had on the sport since the Paris Olympics. If not more. If not more, we have no idea. We have no, yeah. NBC, please send us your viewership data. Um, but congratulations to all of them. That is a huge lift. And there's always unforeseen difficulties that come with a live event. I mean, how we have unforeseen difficulties with podcasts, right? Yeah in a controlled environment. But the fact that, you know, they were able to pull this off and put on such a great event for fencing, like, congratulations to all of them. Um, and you know, whatever, whatever our personal opinions are on certain parts of the event, like we had a great time watching it, right? That was we we sat in there with some of our closest friends and we watched this event from start to finish, and we had a great time, very fun time watching it.

SPEAKER_02 3:55

Yeah, say what you want. It got views, it got views. On top of that, just to follow up on that, you know, just getting this event off the ground, even if it got zero views, is a big deal. Right. Hosting a totally new concept with not just fencers, but some of the highest caliber talent on the planet, and bringing in other people from outside of just that event that were also fencers to come and support and be a part of that project is is a big deal. So kudos to the World Fencing League, kudos to you guys. I mean, no one else has done it. No one else has done it. So good for y'all. Um, yeah, what was it like for me? I think there was a lot of anticipation. We we knew what parts of the event would be like. There were rules released that you didn't know about, but I did. Uh, there was gameplay format, there was the athlete roster that was released, but we didn't know how it actually played out, how these athletes would actually fence under new rules, what the show would be like, what the stream would be like. And we got on YouTube, we got on that live stream, and from then until the moment it ended, until there was a recap at the end, we did not stop watching. Yeah, and that is a huge win for the league. I know that some people clicked off, some people didn't. We didn't. We were on there, we were watching the whole thing, we were tracking the chat room, which might have been one of the more entertaining pieces of this.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Well, that was I was gonna get into that later, but the highlight of the whole event for me was the live chat on YouTube.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

The hilarious and I know that some people get offended if they get a lot of hate in the chat and whatnot, but at the end of the day, if you don't have a crazy chat room on a live stream, then you're not doing it right. Right. And that's a sign that the World Fencing League did something right. They got a lot of hate, a lot of love, a lot of hello, I'm from Japan messages in their uh live stream. And it was pretty hilarious, and also just a sign that there were so many active users participating in this event, in this process. And I thought that was really cool. It was really cool. Um, and we saw familiar names in the live stream. I think Ryan Choi actually logged on at one point and asked people to be patient, so I'm really sorry that he had to do that. Um I wish where my Choi boys at. Yeah, is that one of the conversations? That was one of the things he said. That's pretty funny. But let's go from there. So, what else do we want to talk about? Other things. Let's start with what went well.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Yeah. Well, first of all, this is something that we we kicked ourselves from addressing in the last one, but you had cash prizes in fencing. Yeah, right. You you had motivated individuals, not just putting on exhibition for exhibition's sake, right? They were trying to get they were trying to get paid. Yeah. Um, and that's a big deal.

SPEAKER_02 6:49

Let's just talk about how big this is because the world championships of fencing, if you win the world championships, most of the time you're not getting that much money. Last year, they introduced a huge cash prize, which is good, bad, could be potential hush money. We could talk about that another episode. But or not. We'll see. Might cut this. So for world championships, if you win the whole tournament, you get $40,000 as of last year. Might not happen again this year, happened last year, but that's a whole tournament. Here, defense one equal opponent and win. You're getting $10,000 for one match.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:28

Those stakes are way crazier. The incentive is way higher, and you're being flown out to said match. So you incur very little cost to go there, other than your time and effort and energy. And if you win, you're getting paid $10,000. Any fencer on the planet would say yes to this deal. Yeah. Name one that you think wouldn't. I can't. I literally can't. So that is a huge deal for fencing, and I think that went really well. And hopefully the sponsors of said cash prizes were happy with where their money went.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Yeah. No, I I hope so. Um, funnily enough, like, and you know, we we we can touch on this a bit, but like the the demeanor of the athletes, right? Of all those athletes, it didn't seem like if I were fencing on that stage for money, right? I would have been a little more feral, right? I would have these these athletes all look like they were having a great time, right? The they were having fun, they were enjoying themselves, it was very like friendly. Um and maybe we need to raise the stakes a little bit more. You know, maybe that just wasn't uh as lucrative as you need to get absolutely feral on the strip and try and like kill your opponent with a sword. Um, but I think that was a cool piece of it, right? We you you kind of forget the stakes, and it's like they aren't doing it for the money, they're doing it to put on a show for the sport. And I think that was you know really good of them. Really uh it just reflects well on the athletes, uh, the fact that they're willing to to go through this and to to put on for the sport for all of us, um, to get more eyes on fencing um and make it a great evening rather than making it about the money, right? And I I think that just speaks volumes to the character of those athletes and to the the kind of event that they're putting on, right? It's it's all to to progress and and bring the sport forward, bring it into other people's sites. Um, and it's at the end of the day, it's not about the cash.

SPEAKER_02 9:24

Interesting take. I I do think that the athletes were all very, very motivated to help grow the sport via this project, and it came through on the strip and they tried out the new rules. Yes, there was some confusion, but they they went for it. Yeah, and I really enjoyed that.

SPEAKER_00 9:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:42

Um, some other stuff that went well was the introduction of a totally new rule set, gameplay format, and technology into fencing. Right now, although the technology has been used in some type of recap or analysis of uh the Tokyo Olympics, it was never implemented live like this. Yeah. And that is a huge win for any project, and let alone ours, where we're coming from a super archaic slash dinosaur of a sport. It's an awesome sport. There is technology involved, it is really cool, but we're not with the times. And this attempt to bring us into the future, bring us to the present was in some ways a really successful shot just by virtue of the fact that they were able to deliver. Yeah. And we now have seen fencing with a new rule set and this new tech live. The whole world has seen it. And that is a huge win for this entire project. I think it went well from that perspective. And I think that we now have more data to move forward with. So I think that there is enough momentum, maybe not to get some of the viewers that were watching that never seen fencing before, but a huge win for them is like you and I, we're gonna watch the second wave. Oh, yeah. If there is another one, which I have a feeling there will be, I hope you and I'll and I know a strong handful of people will turn tune in to watch. That is a victory. That is something that wins a win for the sport. That is recurring viewership.

SPEAKER_01 11:19

Yeah. And you know, I think whether like uh this is my opinion of the event aside, which uh whatever happened to that event, it's not about event one, right? It this this process and this this concept of of creating a successful fencing league or and you know a successful sports league, it's about how do you iterate, right? We we brought up our issues with the rule set in the last episode and and speculations on that. How are they gonna adjust moving forward? How are they gonna iterate on this and how are they gonna make changes and and take the feedback from this event and bring event two and event three and event four and and make it a bona fide thing that people can tune in to watch, right? Yeah, that that is the name of the game.

SPEAKER_02 12:02

All the major sports are still testing rule changes season by season, NBA, NFL. Like this iteration is important to not only keep the safety of your athletes in mind, the ability for them to perform well, but also keep audiences engaged. Tastes shift, preferences shift. We need new things. So yeah, I totally agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 12:23

How are they gonna iterate? So I guess let's let's talk about the actual, let's go play by play, recap the event, and then after that we can talk about, you know, what could have gone better for this event. Um, but you know, you and I had some predictions in this in our last episode. Um, some of which came to fruition, some of which didn't. You were mostly wrong. I was mostly right. Play the footage. All right. Um, but we gotta check the tapes. Yeah, we gotta roll the cheaper. I was pretty right. Um so let's start it off women's foil. We had Lee Kiefer and Ariano Origo, uh, which we didn't we did not talk about Arigo. We are sorry, Ariano Rigo. You're a legend, and we dropped the ball there. Um it was very late at night, and we're sorry. But uh that first match, right? You have Lee Kiefer go up very quickly uh in the match, and then Ariana Rigo reminding everybody why she's a legend of the sport, clawing it back, and taking the win over Lee. Um that was a fun match to watch, uh, but also interesting to see how those fencers adjusted to those rule changes, right? Off the bat, I think foil had the most drastic rule changes, and so it was cool to see that from the start, you know. And what were those rule changes? Uh no off-target lights, right? Which in in theory sounded like a way to make foil very fast-paced and very understandable. Uh in practice, I think it it changed the game quite a bit, and it changed the way that the fencers, you know, you you fence with a certain rule set for your entire life, and there's a pace of the sport, right? Things stopping in a certain time, and all of a sudden they don't stop. Um, and it was it was kind of funny to see these fencers like hit off target, expect for the action to stop, kind of look at each other and then oh shit, and you know, keep keep fighting. Um, so that was that was just really, really interesting with how much the game of foil changed just by removing the off-target lights.

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Yeah. I mean, we kept bringing up how it kind of looked like weird epe at a certain point. It was obviously very fast-paced relative to some of these other weapons. Um, it became more fast-paced. And personally, I thought it was a really tough match to get going with. You know, these are two of the more accomplished athletes if you aggregate across both athletes in this event.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

And I don't know if it necessarily did it justice. Uh, there were some tech issues, right? There was no sound for the viewership because again, it was the first stream. They're just you're getting out the it's not even Rust. There was no Rust. They're just figuring out what's working, what's not working. So I think that the viewership experience was not as good. And I don't think it was necessarily a testament to how strong these athletes were. And I do think that the athletes were a bit confused by the the situation that they were in. Right. And they were both trying, they both fought really hard. And I do think it was good that they were fighting. You saw there was a lot of joy, like you said, before the matches, but then during the match, these athletes were working their asses off. They were fighting really hard for each touch, they were celebrating the touches they won, they were frustrated with the touches. No, it's okay. They were celebrating the touches they won, they were frustrated when they weren't getting touches, and I loved seeing that competitiveness. Yeah. I can't say I necessarily loved the way that it looked on these athletes, and that was challenging. I think that the no off-target lights, the core à core rules that have been changed, um, they were they were challenging for these athletes to adapt to. And I don't know if it necessarily made foil better or more watchable for spectators. I also don't know how much the right-of-way arrows really helped in the right of way sports because it still didn't establish why that fencer had right of way. Yeah. And it was it was still hard to follow. I really like that they tried it. I lay go. Shout out to this company, very young company, young founders, build out. Uh, we didn't shout them out at all on our previous episode, but they built I didn't even know they were doing this, but so we didn't shout them out at all on our previous episode, but they built this cool tech that tracks the right of way. So it's they're working in conjunction with Densu. But that's cool. I don't think that it necessarily made it easier to get someone through the door and watching fencing.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Right. No, I I agree with that. I think of the three weapons, the foil ru rule changes need the most iteration, the most work. Um, but I think this event provided valuable feedback for you know what works and what doesn't. I I completely echo, you know, it's it just became kind of weird epe. Uh and the touches they went for, you know, the fact that you don't have an off-target light, right? And you you run someone down you have right of way, and you hit their leg or their arm, and then they counterattack and hit you in the chest, and it's you know, defensive point. That's not foil, right? That's that's not the system that they've built. That's not the the rules that they train for, and like it's just FA now.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Um so I think the risk they run is when they switch over to this, the top athletes might not stay the top athletes. Right. I think that is a that is a big risk.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

That's another piece of this, is I think and I, you know, this is a huge logistical lift for them because they had to custom make the scoring machines to accommodate these new rule sets, right? So you can't have athletes, at least foil and saber athletes, uh, train these new rules, right? Because you can't like it was so difficult for them to get a machine that uh allowed for these rule changes.

SPEAKER_02 18:07

So I think it just begs the question how how much is worth it, right? Right, right. And I understand that you need to uh adapt and grow and push and change, but maybe maybe the right choice. This was you know, not the first time that I thought that, but I definitely thought it watching this first match. Right. Maybe having our traditional three weapons sets is not the right future for this sport, and it's it that's a really intrusive thought to peep in at the first match of this of this event. So I wouldn't say it's necessarily fair to think that, but it is a thought that popped through my head.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

It took across your mind. All right. Uh moving on to the second match.

SPEAKER_02 18:47

I I think this was the best match of the whole night.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

I this is the best that I've heard.

SPEAKER_02 18:52

All bias included. Yeah. But you gotta remove some of the bias and ask yourself, did they make Epe cool?

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Listen, I think the Epe rule changes of the three weapons were the best because you didn't significantly change the game to where the athletes are out of their element and uncomfortable. And you provided just enough incentive with that 45-second shot clock that doesn't change every touch. I love that rule, by the way.

SPEAKER_02 19:18

And two athletes that were willing to just slug it out, willing to duke it out, slug it out.

SPEAKER_01 19:23

Um those rule changes provided just enough incentive to to keep constant action and to lower the amount of time it takes for those touches to happen. And those two guys duked it out, man.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

And those are two of some of the most iconic epaiists of this generation, yeah. And they showed it. They they both scored a lot of touches uh for a short epa match. They they both put on a show in their own right. Uh, our buddy Gergu coming back towards the end, yeah, really fighting hard, showing that although this is an exhibition, he wants it. Yeah, he wants to put on the show. Koki loves putting on a show. These guys duked it out. And I will say, as we go, you know, bout by bout, all the athletes put on a show. Yeah, all the athletes came out there and wanted to score touches and to have a good time scoring touches, and it was great. That being said, bias included, this was the most interesting match of the night. Yes. It it looked really cool, it looked fun, it sort of gave an insight into what Epe could be if it was faster. Yeah. And I think that is a real talking point amongst fencers because Epe is known to be the easiest to understand, not just for spectators, but for the athletes. And this barrier that blocks Epe from being more popular, maybe in viewership, is that it doesn't necessarily look as cool. Because what do spectators want to see? They want to see swashbuckling, they want to see clanking of swords, they want to see that fighting. Epe requires so much patience. I don't think it typically performs well with those audiences because they get bored. They didn't have a chance to get bored here, and the athletes still had to do all the things that make Epe Epe. Right. And that was really, really exciting to watch. And I think it brought Epe one step closer to being a really spectator viable sport. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 21:23

I like you said, best match of the night, hands down.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Um, moving on to kudos to Koki for winning as well as Ariana Rigo for winning her match. Yes, yes. Um, so that was two team shield wins already. Oh, yeah. Uh we forgot to bring up this this team format, right? Uh, you know, the first team to get to four wins would win. So they're down, they're up two zero on the American team. Yeah. American plus Gerga Siclosi, O Sang plus, uh Osangok and Alexandra Nadolo team.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so then moving into the third match, you had Esther Muhari versus. Versus Alexander Nadolo. What'd you think? Well, we got that one right. We thought Esther was gonna go out there and smack around, and smack around, she did. She's a very dominant fencer. Very dominant fencer. Uh always a pleasure to watch Esther because she just makes it look so easy, right? She makes it look effortless and she just goes out there and she smacks people around, man. Um, so that was a really fun match to watch. Um again, you know, at Bay a little slower, and you know, these two fencers are a little slower in terms of the action and the amount of you know swashbuckling that's going on as compared to Gergou and Koki. Um, but with those rule changes, you still had a good amount of pressure and a good amount of action coming from both. A lot of touches scored, a lot of touches scored in a very short match. So it was again even with two or four different kinds of fencers, right? Four different epe fencers who who all have different pace of the play and and different uh sort of fencing styles and amount of actions they do, like the rule changes fit all those fencers, right? And it created a shorter, more entertaining sport. Yeah. So it's a great win by Esther Mahari there, and all of a sudden now team shield is up 3-0. Um, which got us thinking, you know, now you have you're halfway through. One team you the now the other team's gotta win all three to keep this competitive. It's a blowout. It's a blowout. Uh, and nobody likes a blowout. I mean, some people like a blowout. Epe's done here. Epe's done. Now we get into Sabre.

SPEAKER_02 23:34

And outcome John Philippe Patrice and Osango for Saber's introduction to this new format. Right. What did you think of the Sabre rules? I'm gonna be super honest. As a right-of-way layman, I thought it kind of looked the same. Yeah, I thought the time limit was an interesting uh thing to introduce just because it it puts rather than a score limit, it just puts a time limit on the match. That being said, it kind of seemed very similar to what Saber already is. Yeah. I understand that they gave more, I would say, weight to a clearer calling on these simultaneous actions, right? That was one of the rule changes.

SPEAKER_01 24:20

That was one of the rule changes that I still didn't quite understand because there was some sort of priority system, but then on the at least on the screen, the priority never changed, right? Yeah, I so I was kind of confused when that changed, why that changed, how uh rules were a little unclear for me. That's on me for not doing my research.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Yeah, and point being I don't think it cleared Sabre up for the athletes or the spectators.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

No, the athletes seemed a bit confused as well.

SPEAKER_02 24:45

The athletes seemed a bit confused, and that that's one of the challenges that you face when you do stuff like this. And I just think that one needs uh a lot of iteration. Yeah, and I think that's kind of, or at least I hope that that's the underlying assumption, specifically for the right-of-way sports, because they are much harder to fix or solve for audiences. Um not saying that epe is easy, but it's a much simpler problem to solve, and you can clear it up, like make this thing that's easy to understand, but maybe somewhat boring, a little more exciting. The others, they're exciting, there's a lot of action. There was so much action in foil and saber, but it was not as clear.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Yeah, it was still unclear. And I, you know, I've I've been thinking about this and reflecting on this. I think we have to get a think tank together of some of the minds and fencing and figure out, you know, what are the rule changes we can make, right? I think that's what they did. Well, I think we need to expand the pool. We were a part of that think tank. We need to expand the pool, man. I think we gotta come together as a community and really figure this problem out and keep iterating on it. I think that's happening right now. Well, I hope so. I really hope so because we need this event was part of that. Yeah, it cleared some things up, but I feel like we're not there. We're definitely not there. That part was clear.

SPEAKER_02 26:01

Um, at least in the right-of-way ones, definitely not there.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

And Epe, we can still make it, we can still crank some, we can squeeze some excitement out of it. Maybe so, but I will say this is this was the funniest piece of the whole event for me. Um, was Osanguk being down with 10 seconds left. And I was I was thinking to myself, he doesn't even know to look at the clock, right? Because as a saber fencer, he's that's something never yeah, he's never had to deal with the concept of time in this sport, right? And I like he the timer's there, but does he even know like conceptually to look at the time and to check the time? And I don't think he did, right? Because he he could have in theory, right? And obviously with right-of-way this is different, but in theory, could have scored those two touches in 10 seconds just running down or in five seconds or whatever it was. Um but he didn't. He he took some time to like you know pull the uh JPP's attack short, right? And then and then try and have his right-of-way. And so he's still playing the game, uh, which begs the question, you know, when you add this time element, how do you change that push and that pull and and try and force these actions um as opposed to whatever your strategy is before? So I I thought that was an interesting like case study. Um, and I I hope we get to see more of that. I hope we see more time and savor. Um, because it was kind of interesting to me and selfishly, I want to see how that plays out more and how the strategies shift and change.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

Nice. Well, John Philippe Patrice took that cake.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

He killed it, man. He fenced a very good bout. That was one that we both called wrong.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

Yeah, I thought Osinga could win. So cheer kudos to you, John Philippe. Uh, we were wrong. Great mental. Um, and then that brought us to our next bout, our team USA and pre-or teammate, former podcast guest, yeah, Maya Chamberlain and Michaela Batistan. Yep. And it seemed like Maya just showed up ready to dominate.

SPEAKER_01 27:57

You know, I think the real winner of the World Fencing League was Maya Chamberlain, man. She balled out. She balled out, she gets fight of the night. She was doing bracious. Yeah, yeah. Cokey and Garrigo get fight of the night. She gets fighter of the night. Yeah. She went out there. MVP was my thing. She's MVP. Sorry, that's the word I was looking for. But she absolutely put on a show, right? She was out there, she was loving the audience, feeling that energy, and putting on highlight real touches. Skyhooks, sky hooks, trying to jump two and the second touch of the bout, right? Like it was what an event for her. Um, so I, you know, I really hope that if anybody got to cash out on like the social media following in the eyes of the sport, it was Maya because she she really went out there and felt herself. And that was that was pure joy to watch, pure joy in the sport. And I I felt very happy just watching her put on a show like that. Um, so kudos to Maya for for really being the MVP of the night.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Yeah, no, she killed it. And I I think her opponent, they, you know, even in the post-match interview, seemed to be a little upset about the rules, not fully understanding them. And that that made me a little bit sad, but it shows how competitive they were on strip. The fencers got on wanting to win, which is so important. Right. And and Maya, kudos to you, bald out. Um, and that brought us to the last. So Maya won her first team team blade match, and now they're down 4-1. They already lost the major prize, but at the same time, there's one match left. Um, Miles programmed himself to be the last match of the night. It makes sense. Uh, you know, he's one of the co-founders of this league. He wants to put himself uh to close out the event, and I think it flowed well for the story of the evening.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Well, the the funny, and then maybe this was our experience, but the match ends. Well, here let's get there out.

SPEAKER_02 29:47

Okay, okay, okay. We said these things about foil in the leak keeper bout. I agree with them for the men's foil bout. But what I'll say is this Miles Chemley Watson and Ryan Choi put on a show. They scored the most touches of any of the bouts, the most aggregate touches, and they were fighting hard. In the post-match interview, Ryan Choi is drenched.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

That guy was sweatier from drenched, and I'm sure they warmed up for it, but he was drenched.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

That was awesome. They put it all on the line. Miles Chamley Watson comes out at his own event. He's up. People are asking, is it rigged? Is it rigged? It might be rigged. No, it's not. Ryan Choi is one of the best fencers in the world, and I think he demonstrated that. He came out and scored a lot of his signature touches. He is a great all-around fencer who loves high octane moments. He loves fast tempo, and he loves to put on and he loves ripping his actions. He doesn't the conversation is less important when you can just roll the dice or when you can just reach into your bag, pick out a card, and play that card. He is so exciting to watch, and that was really fun. Miles hit some cool touches too. He tried to do one of his signature touches. He came and put on a show in an event that he helped create, set up, and and kudos to him. Yeah. That being said, Ryan Choi and Miles both came out swinging. It was really awesome. Still a lot of weird epa going on and like these infighting moments and the missing and all this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 31:32

Case in point. I I vividly remember one touch where Ryan had the right away, ran Miles down to the end of the strip, launched an attack, hits off target, Miles counterattacks to the chest, gets the point, like uncontested, right? Yeah, which we're used to that. We're used to that, but for them, right, that's not it's not a touch, and it's an advantage for Ryan because he's gained all that ground, right? Instead, he just loses a point.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

So um for spectators, that could be a bit tough because you're now explaining right-of-way and on target, off-target, and all this stuff when the simpler solution seems right around the corner.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

That match closes out the evening, and it was 5-1. Yeah, it was five-one. Um, and I will say, kind of like poetic injustice here. Miles goes to give his post-fight interview, and our YouTube stream cut. And it wasn't just he was everybody. Um, and it just was gone from the footage. And I, you know, I was actually really looking forward to hearing what he had to say. You have not checked YouTube, have you?

SPEAKER_02 32:33

They posted the raw footage. Good, good, good. And World Fencing League did release his speech, so it did get out there. I'm gonna watch that speech as soon as we finish recording this episode. Okay, I did feel a little bit bad though, because you know, this big night ends, and there was a lot of preamble in the the question that was asked to him. Right. And he goes to answer and it just froze. Yeah. Uh that was a bit sad. It was um it is what it is, is what it is, and that rounded out the night. Then they announced the winners and the runner-ups. I thought that was kind of funny because it was there were only two teams, so obviously, one is the runner-up, they're also the losers. Um, but the coolest part of the whole night for me. You said that about like 10 things. No, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

This is this was truly the coolest part. I said the funniest thing. This was the coolest thing. Just seeing Yu Kyota with the trophy, man. He came out, and you have a legend of the sport. Just here's your trophy. And he's involved, he helped build out Densu, right? That was that was cool for me. That was a cool moment to see. Uh, just having one of the legends of the sport presenting this trophy for the new iteration of the sport. Um, that made me really happy. And I was really, I'm I'm glad they got him to do that. That was that was a cool move.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

I like that they did an awards ceremony and they presented all this stuff. It it looked fun. It allowed the athletes to come and enjoy the show. Remember, okay, we're done fencing, let's just have fun. We are here to put on a show. The show's ending. And and that was kind of it. Then they did a recap with the commentators, and that was our night of the World Fencing League. So let's chat about some of the stuff that could have gone better. Some stuff that we're maybe hoping for in the future, and then then we'll round out our episode here. Yeah. So um let's you're you seem to have something on your mind.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

Well, no, I there's a listen, there was a lot that could have been done differently or done better, and I'm sure they will iterate it on iterate on that in the future. Um, but to start, elephant in the room, the densu tech. This is a game changer for the sport. This is what got the league into the public eye. This is what went viral, right? And it just didn't quite deliver, right? It was what you're what you bought is not what you were sold. Right, right. You have this beautiful clip from the Tokyo Olympics that everybody's been saying. Alex Maciales clip, right? Sick, the swirly, the good animation, and that is clearly a remastered, edited clip, right? With the densu tech. It performed well, right? It did track the tips. Um, but in all these actions, right, you have little kind of like stuttering of the tip, and it is tracking that, but it's not the quite beautiful looping slow motion action that we were led to believe we'd see. Um, and then you get into these 3D model replays with the city. The renderings were trying to way too glitchy. They were trying to cook, but it it did not deliver there. Like it was glitchy, these things aren't really fencing. And you know what my biggest complaint with that was it's not even the ones where they they stuttered out and they glitched out. It's in the right of way weapons, right? So often you had two lights go on, right? And the person with right of way did not hit first, right? You have these really sick, like um, you know, attacks, right? Where one person's pushing the other one down and landing this attack, and they but they put two lights on. And I think in four or five separate replays that they did, the defender hit first. So this replay pauses and highlights the defensive touch that wasn't a point, right? And that that kind of that irked me a bit more than anything else.

SPEAKER_02 36:16

So I thought again, similar to you, it's really cool that they're implementing this tech. It is it is sick that they they even got to the point of trying it. I think that I think they were a bit eager to get all this off. It seemed almost rushed. Yeah. Like uh I'll I'll commentate I'll comment on this and then I'll bring up some other stuff. But I I think that audiences are not necessarily as forgiving as fencers are. Um they might be, they might be, but they might not be. And I think that it just looked unpolished. Yeah. And when this event is trying to be this very polished red carpet, all this stuff, uh, all these things that scream glam, glory, greatness, beauty, excellence, which did exist in this event, right, combined with a glitchy new software that we all had to kind of just shrug off. Yeah, it did create an imbalance of what people were experiencing. And I think it's hard to get live testing of this tech, but I think that they were too cagey about all of it and didn't test it enough. And that was really apparent when you went live with a bunch of people watching, and it just it's it's hard to be perfect. We're human beings. You and I are far from perfect, so it's less of a criticism and more of just a letdown.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

Yeah. And now you did say something interesting there where fencers are more forgiving, right? Because we love this war. We're gonna come back and look at it. You and I are going back regardless. Yeah, but uh, what I do find what I am curious about is the non-fencing public's perception of this, right? Because while fencers are more forgiving and we are gonna go back for more, we are more critical, right? And all the fencers I've spoken to about this league were highly critical, highly critical of this league, right? And I I think that's because we we have expectations and because we understand this sport. So it goes, you know, who are you making this league for? Is it the existing fencing fans who are gonna be there anyways? You're gonna you're gonna kind of rug pull them a little bit, or are you gonna make it for the new audience?

SPEAKER_02 38:22

And I think there has to be an element of both that new audience is still gonna tune in and be like, wow, this is super glitchy, right? Yeah, you know, that this is not what it looked like on Instagram. Puberty posted this, ESPM posted this, and this is not what I'm getting. But there were moments where it did look kind of like that. Yeah, and that was a big win for the league. We didn't, I guess, didn't fully talk about that. Um, but let's go back to the cage-iness. You know, I think that something that could have gone better, really controversial topic is gambling, right? Betting on sports. They introduced it for this league, but most platforms where you have to, you know, get authenticated and all your documents in before you can bet, you know, takes at least a day to get that account cleared, the funds into your account. And I think they released day of that they were gonna allow gambling and and betting on this event. And that was a that was a place where they super fell short. And it maybe they didn't finalize the deal till the day of, but something tells me that that's not the case. And I think being pretty cagey about the athletes within the sport again ended up being a missed opportunity for marketing. We already talked about that beforehand, so we don't need to harp on that now, but I still think more athlete stories. Uh, some of the nicknames were cool, but some of the nicknames were it seemed like they missed the mark. My our buddy Gergo with the nickname Reach Advantage. He's not even that tall. He's pretty tall. He's pretty tall, but he's not taller than you and me. But he's not like I don't know if Reach Advantage is a great nickname, but maybe he chose that nickname. So we're not gonna put that on the league. I will just say that I feel like there's this idea that they had to guard the information in order to create hype or um maybe anticipation. And when I think that anticipation and hype would have been there regardless, yeah. And maybe either testing out that tech or sharing the athletes' stories more, building training montages, getting interviews, I think that all could have built on itself a bit more beforehand, during and after, where it now just sort of seemed like this isolated event. But another thing that I think could have gone better, and I really hope they iterate on I think this team format was terrible. Oh, yeah. I'm not a big fan of this team. I think this team format, you had fencers calling timeouts, and one of the really funny comments that we read was imagine being one of the best Epe fencers in the world and having Epe explained to you by Miles Chamley Watson during a timeout. And this is not a comment on Miles Chamley Watson or any of the athletes. This is more of a hilarious sentiment that stuck with everyone where these timeouts were called, and we didn't talk about that. That was a cool thing that you can add into the gameplay. Yeah, but you're not being coached by an athlete that's doing anything similar to you, where they can sort of understand the same way that you know I can go and coach a saberist, but are they really gonna want me to coach them? No, they'd rather have like a saber coach or a high-level saberist coaching them. And I think that that part was really silly. And then on top of that, added to the trivialization of this whole process. And I think I think a decision kind of needs to be made of is this more of you know a show, WWE, everyone's having fun, or is this more of we are fighting to win money? What type of league is this? What and this is not a criticism, it's more of a question. Which which way are they gonna go? Yeah, you know, which way are they gonna go? And how are we going to evolve? Because I don't think this team format is great, even if you want to sell these teams to like F1, yeah, like what you you're buying like a superstar team and just hoping this all-star team wins. Like they're there are only two all-star teams in the NBA and the NFL and all these other sports MLB because because it's not real. It's a it's a joke. It's it is a an exhibition. It's an exhibition. Yeah, it's not real. It is an exhibition. I won't say joke. No, it's not real, it is an exhibition. So that's I'll let you contribute some of the stuff that you think could have gone better, or just questions to pose for the future of this league, but I don't think that this team format is viable for for audiences, for monetization of the league, for making it exciting to follow. I don't care if Team Blade or Team Shield wins. These teams are comprised of all stars, but it doesn't make any sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 42:37

No, I I echo everything you've said so far.

SPEAKER_02 42:40

Okay, okay. I wanted Team Shield to win because you wanted Team Blade to win. So I did care.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

Yeah. Um, I I completely agree with all your sentiments on this. I think that moving forward, they have decisions that need to be made, right? This first event, you have that sort of not excuse, but you have that uh ability to be very neutral and to just put on a show, right? And the answer to all these questions is we're we're trying this out, we're putting on a show. But for the continued success of this league, they're gonna need to pick directions, right? They're gonna need to have direction. Are we gonna keep going team? Is this an exhibition or is this a fight? Um iterate on the rules, figure out, you know, are we going full excitement or are we going full clarity? And now now that's where the risk comes in, right? Because you might lose viewership if you screw any of these things up. Um but hate to say it, the fencing community will be there. We will still be tuning in. Um and at the end of the day, again, congratulations to everybody at the world at the WFL. Um they did a great job for for bringing eyes to the sport. They did a great job hosting an event. Um, and I hope there's more in the future, and I can't wait to tune in and watch those as well. Before we sign off, uh one more thing that we uh that I did talk to some people about in the We did get some feedback on um was the commentary. The commentary definitely is another thing that needs to be iterated on and needs some work, right? You had David Willette there, who was an experienced commentator at this point with fencing, and I, you know, maybe not some of his best work as far as fencing commentary goes. I think it was still a little bit too technically driven. Um, and I think for this kind of event, you need someone who's who's speaking more to the general vibe of the match, the general consensus of what's going on, uh, both with the audience, with uh the athletes just sort of capturing the energy. Can I disagree with you?

SPEAKER_02 44:37

Yeah, good. I think David did the job he was supposed to. I think the other commentator that they had as a part of this this format, I think the MC did an all right job. I think she was good. She engaged well, but the other commentator, I think there's this idea that we need to have this professional commentator in the box. And I totally disagree with that. I think that David Willette did a wonderful job providing the clarity that was needed, only if the other commentator was way more colorful than David was. Well, so here's the thing bringing hype, energy, question, what's going on? Oh my God, that was crazy, blah, blah, blah all this stuff. And I think that that balance needs to exist. Whereas this other guy is is in there, he did a good job for what it's worth, but he clearly doesn't understand fencing, and he's having fencing explained to him, and he's not making it more interesting to the people listening.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

Right. Well, that's what I was gonna say. Um, was that there's there's a balance that needs to be met, right? And I think it was too far in the technical, and that other guy needed to contribute more, right? You that's that's what I mean, is you you need to have more excitement and generalization of what's going on, and then add the color commentary, which is you know, the technical aspect of it, right? That that balance is off that that blend of how much of each kind of talk you're getting. Um, it was more in the technical, and it needed to not be. It needed to be more in the excitement, like you're saying.

SPEAKER_02 46:07

Yeah, there just wasn't as much emotion as you'd like to see in something that is exciting. You're still watching a fighting sport, they were dissecting it like chess. And I I think at the end of the day, the spectators want to tune into sword fighting. No, yeah, and the commentating needs to be exciting. You need to be willing to not necessarily make all the explanations make sense in lieu of more exciting reactions, you know, uh and commenting on like you said, I think you said the word vibe, but just the flair of it all. And that is important to think about moving forward because again, I think David did a great job, and I think David, you know, is now one of two people to get to commentate on a WFL event. So he now has a rep under his belt, and hopefully I they stick with him. And the other commentator, I don't necessarily care if they stick with or don't stick with. I just think that if they do stick with him, he should be bringing a little more to the table. Or David brings a little more, it doesn't really matter. But I'm saying for David be to be fencing's representative in that box is totally fine with me. Although these views are our own, we did get to talk with plenty of fencers about this event. No, these are informed opinions, these aren't this is after good time to reflect. These are informed opinions with time to reflect as well as time to think about how we can relay them to you guys in in a way that is constructive, right? Because we mentioned the fencing community is critical, we're super critical. And some of the the tension between the old and the new was a lot more palpable in these conversations that we had than what we provided today. And we want to just remind all fencers that as harsh as we can be, and as as you know, uh opinionated as we are, this league just went and tried something totally new. And there's something to be said about that, and I think it's super exciting that some person or group of people or company put up forth enough funding to make that dream a reality. Yeah, right. And that is a huge win regardless of what anyone has to say about it.

SPEAKER_01 48:24

No, absolutely. And I and I hope I hope they take that feedback because if you just ignore the the criticisms and the hate, then and you just kind of echo chamber yourself, you're not gonna create a better product, right? But at the same time, I hope they kind of let the the blows glance off because it was a it was a great event and it was a fun watch and it did bring eyes to the sport. And I I can't wait for event number two.

SPEAKER_02 48:49

Yeah, hopefully World Fencing League is listening, and hopefully you guys uh you know take some of this into consideration as you plan event two. But again, kudos to everyone.

SPEAKER_01 49:01

Kudos to everyone, and we want to hear you guys' feedback as well. Drop it in the comments. We saw some good engagement on our first video.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

We want even more, we want arguments in the comments. We want, and we'll get involved too. We'll give some of our takes. Yeah, you know, and we can make follow-up videos if there's something we missed. And in general, just uh, what do you guys want to see? Before we log off, before we log off, huge to my fiance and my girlfriend, your girlfriend, Dasha and Erica, for making something really cool for us. Um, I don't know if the video can see this. You can sort of see in the cuts of the wide show. I'll be cutting to the wide. Cuts of the wide. Uh, you can sort of see uh these two faces and direct elimination podcasts in here. Um, how awesome of them. And it and if you guys can't really see it, we'll do a better job to bring this sign to you guys on future episodes. But it's really special to have people in our lives that support what we're doing, and you guys are a part of that. Thank you for tuning in week after week, month after month, to listen to what our guests have to say, to what we have to say, to engaging with us on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, as well as any podcast streaming platforms. It's been so cool to get this project off the ground and to keep it rolling. And we're iterating as well. We take feedback as well and we want to keep growing. And for any of you that keep approaching us at tournaments and introducing yourselves, thank you so much. Keep doing that. Tell us what you want, tell us what you hate. And it is just so touching that y'all feel comfortable enough to come up to us, to engage with us. You know, that is part of the fun of creating something like this. It's it's that it touches the ears and eyes of actual people. So thank you so much. And thanks to our wonderful partners, Dasha and Erica, and frankly, our awesome partner, Prier. We got a Prier mask down here. And the glove. Um, and our Prior glove here for just making stuff like this possible. And you guys have no idea where we're headed. We're going to really cool places.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

We have some some fun stuff in the works.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

Speaking of which, we'd like to announce Steven and I are officially going on the road again. We'll be at Skyward Fencing in South Barrington, Illinois, from July 31st till August 2nd, running an Epe clinic from the direct elimination team. We are limited in spots, so sign up quickly. They're filling up already. July 31st through August 2nd. It is a beautiful facility. It is a younger club. We'd love to see you there if you live in the area. You know the drill will provide plenty of great sessions with awesome training as well as bouting with Steven and me. And we can guarantee you it is going to be a blast. So please come join us. We can't wait to see you.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

Good, good ad.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

All right. Are we good?

SPEAKER_01 51:58

Um, be sure to follow, like, share, and subscribe for more content like this.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

Um, do you want to do some ads?

SPEAKER_01 52:21

I could do an ad.

SPEAKER_02 52:26

See, I'm not that suave of a guy, but when I'm wearing my pre mask, I sure do feel like one. By Prior USA. Get grippy with edge.