Direct Elimination Podcast
The Fencing Podcast of All Fencing Podcasts.
Hosted by Ari Simmons and Stephen Ewart, two elite U.S. fencers chasing Olympic dreams, Direct Elimination goes beyond the strip to uncover the stories, ups and downs that shape athletes. Each episode brings you conversations with fencers, Olympians, and sports leaders who share the mental battles, personal growth, and cultural shifts behind their journeys.
This isn’t just a fencing podcast. It’s about resilience, mindset, and purpose. Whether you’re an athlete, a fan of Olympic sports, or simply someone chasing excellence in life, you’ll find stories here that resonate.
🎙️ Topics we explore:
The mindset of world-class athletes
Failure, resilience, and comeback stories
NCAA & Olympic fencing insights
The role of social media, culture, and community in sports
Why athletes do what they do — and what keeps them fighting
📌 Subscribe for episodes that deliver real talk, laughs, and lessons — straight from the fencing strip to your headphones.
Direct Elimination Podcast
Eli Dershwitz on World Gold, Olympic Lessons & Coaching the Next Gen | Direct Elimination Ep. 4
🎙️ EPISODE 4 – ELI DERSHWITZ INTERVIEW
In this episode of Direct Elimination, Ari Simmons and Stephen Ewart sit down with one of the greatest American fencers of all time: Eli Dershwitz.
Eli’s resume is staggering — World Champion, 3x Olympian, 2x NCAA Champion, Pan-American Champion, and Grand Prix Champion — but what makes this conversation special is the balance of results and reflection. Eli opens up about his career highs, his Olympic heartbreaks, and his next chapter as he takes over his home club, Zeta Fencing.
You’ll hear:
Eli’s fencing origin story, following his brother into the sport in Massachusetts.
The moment that changed everything: losing at Junior Worlds in 2014 and deciding to outwork everyone.
What it meant to become a senior World Champion in Milan (2023).
Honest reflections on three Olympic Games — and the toughest losses that still stick with him.
His coaching philosophy as he takes over Zeta: “building pyramids” with strong foundations in discipline, footwork, and character.
What he’s learned about resilience, gratitude, and preparation at the highest level.
The importance of staying mentally present in practice and in life.
His life outside fencing: hiking with his fiancée and dog, Boston sports fandom, and smoked meats.
This episode is about more than fencing titles. It’s about legacy, perspective, and why one of America’s best is now focused on building the future.
⏱ Timestamps
00:00 – Intro & banter
02:00 – Eli’s resume highlights
04:00 – Fencing origin story & brother’s influence
10:00 – The all-in moment at Junior Worlds 2014
14:00 – Learning to redefine success and maturity
18:00 – “Why behind the win” — what fuels Eli
25:00 – Coaching philosophy & buying Zeta Fencing
32:00 – Training habits and preparation details
35:00 – World Championship gold in Milan (2023)
43:00 – Reflections on three Olympic Games
50:00 – Life outside fencing: hiking, Boston sports, balance
53:00 – One Light Answers rapid-fire segment
59:00 – Closing thoughts & thanks
đź’¬ Key Quotes
“I wasn’t sure if I had what it takes to be the best — but I knew I’d never be outworked.”
“World champion for a day. The next day, you start from scratch.”
“Sometimes the difference is just being mentally present — in practice and in life.”
“If you don’t know how to lose, you can’t last in this sport.”
“Coaching isn’t just about results — it’s about shaping people for life.”
Thank you for listening!
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On this week's episode, we had the pleasure of speaking to an absolute legend of American fencing. So if you want to learn about the ups, the downs, how to keep pushing, how to inspire the next generation, and how to build a pyramid, then this week's episode's for you.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks, Priya, for all that you do. Without your support, we wouldn't be able to have awesome podcast episodes like this one. Thanks.
SPEAKER_03:We rolling? We are rolling. Okay. Ari, in typical fashion, I say we banter a bit about the previous episode. How do you feel having
SPEAKER_02:gone through that? I think it was a great time. We had our first guest that wasn't a epe fencer or a men's epeist like ourselves. And I think it was pretty smooth. We did our research. We had a good time. We had some fun, had some laughs. And ultimately, it just further solidified, in my head at least, the why we're doing this for the podcast. Not just the why for the fencing, right? But the why for the podcast. And it was a lot of fun. How about you? I had
SPEAKER_03:a really good time. I think we had some very interesting conversations, different considerations of things that I hadn't really... We get to the whys and the reasons and I think Bryce had a lot of stuff that I hadn't considered. And we had some very good conversations there. My teeth kind of hurt the next day from the ice cream. That was a lot of cold stuff just on my teeth for an extended period of time. We're going to do But very excited for today. Very excited for our guest. I think having such a high caliber of an athlete, such a legend in the room is definitely going to bring out some conversation that I'm excited to have. And I hope we'll have a lot of fun here too.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, me too. I mean, just to feel a little better about ourselves, we had to get higher seated chairs. So he's a little lower than us just for now, but because when I read out this resume, this is just the tip of the iceberg. We're only going to name some of the major golds that this guy has, but we're sitting in the room with just individual. He's got much more of an accomplished resume when you add in all the team accolades, but just as an individual, we have a five-time World Cup winner, one-time Grand Prix champion, five-time Pan American champion, one-time world champion, three-time Olympian, and two-time NCAA champion and first-team All-American, Eli Dershowitz. Thanks for being here with us today, Eli. It's always crazy to me to read those results out loud and to think about the fact that you've done all these amazing things and yet at the same time, you know, for me you've just been a guy and a friend for for a decade plus now and it's it's awesome to get to interact with you and see how your mind operates with regard to our sport and success and training and and mindset and just the whole the whole nine yards but you're able to turn that off and and just be a friend as well and it's it's always been great knowing you and it's cool that you're here with us to uh get to know steven a bit better and to chat about your life thanks Thanks for being here.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, it's awesome to be here. Thanks for the invite. I love talking about fencing. I love hanging out with you guys. So I appreciate the offer. I appreciate the introduction and I'm happy to talk about fencing as much as you guys want. All right.
SPEAKER_02:Let's get started then.
SPEAKER_03:Well, we're going to start talking about fencing, but also about you just for, well, for me too, and for people listening in. Can you just give us your whole, your backstory? You know, who are you? Where are you from? Why'd you start fencing?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. How'd
SPEAKER_00:you find it? Yeah. So I fell I followed my older brother, Phil, into the sport. At about age nine, I started in suburban Boston, about 30 minutes west of Boston. What town? From Sherbourne, Massachusetts. Sherbourne.
SPEAKER_03:Nice name.
SPEAKER_00:Went to Dover-Sherbourne Middle School, Dover-Sherbourne High School, started fencing recreationally at Zeta Fencing, the club that I just purchased and am about to take over. Started in 2004, spent 17 years training under the head coach and founder, Zoran Tulum. At first, It was just a fun activity to kind of, you know, mix with other sports I was playing. I played basketball, soccer and lacrosse throughout middle school and then kind of slowly over the years started building up a little bit more training, a little bit more competition, got to high school. Things kind of took off a little bit, started doing well nationally, internationally, got recruited to Harvard, had a great team, great support system around me. And then for the last several years since graduation, just been training professionally for the Olympics, coaching for a few years in New York City. And now I'm moving back to Boston with my lovely fiance, Karen, who we're getting married in two weeks. We're about to start running Zeta. That's awesome. That's
SPEAKER_03:living the dream, man.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's the
SPEAKER_02:dream. A lot of really, really positive and exciting changes coming up for you or currently happening, I guess. Yeah, it's not even about it's currently happening. Yeah. Nice. Well, I think that. it's interesting. We had the same answer with Bryce, a sibling related entrance to the sport. So, you know, it's, it's kind of easy to grow up just seeing your sibling go there, but you know, how did, how did your brother find fencing? Like how did fencing enter the Dershowitz, you know, ecosystem?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So he, he, he was going to just this, uh, sports day camp over the summer that had a recreational fencing program. Very beginner introductory, but he liked it. He asked my mom if there was a club in the area. It turned out that a multiple time Olympic coach and just one of the best coaches, you know, around had just opened up a club right next to our house, 10 minute drive. So got a little bit lucky. Sometimes you got to be a little lucky and mixed with hard work in order to get the results you want. But just growing up as a young kid at the club, going with my mom to pick him up at practice, getting to run around the floor at a young age, definitely it was something I wanted to do even before I started. And then, you know, coming up through the ranks over the years, having this older group, this older generation of mentors and people to push you, people to hold you accountable, people to make sure that you, uh, learn proper behavior and etiquette at practice. It definitely mixed with my, uh, coaches, uh, emphasis on discipline and good behavior, like definitely helped structure me into a, what I'd like to call a well-behaved young athlete sometimes.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Um,
SPEAKER_03:I At what point would you say you started kicking your brother's ass?
SPEAKER_02:Like, at what point did you sort of leave him behind? If that moment ever came, like, we don't
SPEAKER_00:know. Yeah, I mean, I would say, like, he kind of retired, like, right after graduating college. And that was right at the time that I was, like, kind of taking off as, like, the end of my high school career. But the last few years, he's come back over, like, Thanksgiving break, Christmas break, and fenced with me in the Harvard team. And, you know, he's not in the same shape he used to be, but he's still got some moves. He still kind of gives some people some trouble. Coaching staff loves him because he's a little bit tricky and old fashioned. But yeah, it's been great. He really, you know, helped pave the way for me. And he's actually since moving to Iowa, taking up FAA fencing. Oh, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_02:He should hit us up. Is he competing or just?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, he goes to some
SPEAKER_02:local Iowa competitions. I believe he earned his D. Let's go.
SPEAKER_03:He's on his way.
SPEAKER_02:He's on that's so cool just to hear about you know a fencer who hung up the cleats and is just finding their way back to the sport and experimenting with you know we're so specialized because we're competing at such a high level and I know that there's you know one fencer currently that's doing multiple weapons at a high level but really it's not something that's common and it's maybe an experience that I wouldn't say we're robbed of but we just choose not to participate And we made jokes on our last episode about Steven doing one foil Mac as a junior, just for fun. But like, you know, getting to fence the other weapons is enjoyable. So it's really cool to hear that your brother's back into it and picked it up and now doing Epe as a lifelong saberist.
SPEAKER_00:I mean, me and my brother always promised when we were young that before we like stopped fencing for good, we would either fence division three men's Epe or division three men's foil at summer nationals together. So you can, you can lock it down here forever. Like that's a promise at some point in history. I will I like that
SPEAKER_02:a lot so an important question that is going to segue us into our first segment is one that is a recurring question if you've listened to this podcast before then you definitely are starting to get the hang of what we talk about here. And that was for the listeners, not for you. Don't worry. So what was your all-in moment, if you can remember? You know, that moment in your career where... It's easy. I already know. You already know it? All right, perfect. Lay it on us.
SPEAKER_00:2014 Junior World Championships, April of 2014, Plovdiv, Bulgaria. That was when... when everything changed for me.
SPEAKER_02:All right. And do you mind speaking to that experience a little bit for us?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So basically 2012 cadet junior world championships, I was supposed to do really well in cadets, went in ranked towards the top. I lost in the top eight. I didn't get a medal, feeling really down on myself. And then in juniors, just out of nowhere, I had no history in juniors. I got silver at U20 worlds when I was my last year cadet. And that kind of jumpstarted me being like, oh, wow, like, you know, I can get some results next Next year, 2013 Junior Worlds, I finally started having some results on the circuit, but I wasn't like ranked at the top yet. And I got bronze at Junior Worlds, my first year of juniors. So back-to-back years, silver and bronze, I was feeling good of myself. Now, 2014 Junior Worlds comes in, I'm ranked number one in the world, feeling like I'm the man. And I lost in the 128. I didn't even get it to the second day. I still remember the guy I lost to. But I remember just walking around the garden outside the Athletic complex all my stuff still on you know just sweating just chugging water just like being absolutely miserable and depressed and i remember like sitting down telling myself like listen like i'm not sure if i have what it takes to be the best in the world and that's not something i can really control but like for the rest of my life like i will hold on to the fact that i will prepare better than anyone else around me and that if i'm gonna win i'm gonna win because i outwork everyone around me and if i lose it's not because of my lack of preparation but it's just just because of, you know, I put everything in, I did everything I could to prepare and it just didn't work out. But that was the moment where it kind of clicked for me that I wasn't going to let anyone else kind of, you know, get the jump on me because of my lack of preparation.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. And at this point in your life, you're like 19 years old, right?
SPEAKER_00:Uh, 2014. Yeah. 19 years old.
SPEAKER_02:19 years old. That's a, it's a pretty sound and mature commitment to yourself at that age
SPEAKER_01:not 18 years old 18 I was a few months away from
SPEAKER_02:20 so add a few more points to that but but honestly it's a it's a really important moment because you know clearly what ensued was pretty legendary thanks
SPEAKER_00:I mean I think I think a lot of it was just kind of fighting against ego like I think I had let maybe the previous years kind of medals make me think that it was just always going to be easy that I was just the man and that like you know just being thrown out of the room not even getting to compete on like the second day of competition like was a big wake-up call for me that like you know nothing in the sport nothing an individual sport you know is is easy every match is a battle and that like I kind of had to hold myself accountable
SPEAKER_03:the other impressive thing about to me about what you said is for for a lot of people you know to be ranked number one in the world at that point it's you know I would have thought I made it you know like I it's easy to rest in your laurels at that point but for for you to then turn that around put more fuel on the fire like that's really impressive to just like instead of you know seeing like i've made it i'm on top of the mountain like you looked above the mountain into the stars and went all right going there um i think that just speaks to the drive that it takes to achieve great things as you have and i you know that's it's awesome to hear
SPEAKER_00:thanks i think you make it sound like i was a little bit more emotionally mature than i was at the time i think a lot of it was just embarrassment i think a lot of it was a saving face and I was like this is what I need to do to make sure that I don't embarrass myself because I definitely felt like I you know let myself down let a lot of people down you know obviously as I grew older and became a more mature athlete like I stopped thinking like that but at a young age I think a lot of it was just purely about like saving face
SPEAKER_02:I hear you thanks thanks for owning up to it and Steven maybe it wasn't looking to the skies maybe he just looked up and saw a bigger mountain
SPEAKER_03:yeah
SPEAKER_02:yeah would It's just
SPEAKER_03:something beyond. Because I think it's easy when you achieve something to look around and go,
SPEAKER_02:I made it or whatever. No, especially. And I guess that brings me into another question that I wanted to ask even Justin. I don't remember if we did. But you dealt with a lot of success at an early age. And that's not without its downs, like the one you just described. And you were able to bounce back and continue to redefine success for yourself with with results and and more accolades and and fiery victories and obviously they come on top of many losses but uh i guess How would you say, you mentioned becoming a more mature athlete. How would you say that your mindset shifted to deal with all that early success and then continue to stay hungry and stay motivated for these later, you know, marathons that you're running?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would say a lot of it comes down to childhood coaching and teaching. I just have so many like core memories from being like a young athlete, middle school, high school, and my coach telling, you know, sitting everyone down and saying, you know, You're world champion. That's great. You're world champion for a day. Next day comes, you got to earn it all again. You got to start from scratch. You know, he said, you always told us that you hold on to the past results, you know, past feelings of accomplishment, whatever. It's going to prevent you from like looking forward to overcoming more obstacles towards developing, you know, better training techniques, better strategies, you know, better, you know, body management, everything. So I think from a pretty young age, the most important thing that was done for and that I plan to do as a coach and a club owner is kind of instill these values and character in the young athletes that go beyond just a one day result. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it's good. It's good to hear this sort of, there's a phrase I'm looking for, but just this wide lens view of things. Holistic. Holistic view. It's not the one I'm looking for, but I'll get it. Don't worry about it. Well, Rob, very holistic view of things it just you know I'm sitting here thinking how to put things into perspective for me and my own career athletic career like this very holistic view of things it's awesome
SPEAKER_02:yeah no very wise no thanks for sharing do you want to introduce the segment or should I you can introduce the segment alright so all these questions bring us to our first official segment of today's show which is the called the why behind the win and we just want you to expand you told us about your all-in moment and that was really powerful and what we want to hear about after this is what sparked your fire originally and what kept that fire sparked throughout you know the many years of high-level competition and now you clearly still have the fire if you're doubling down on the sport as not just an athlete, but a full-time coach and club owner now. Tell us about that motivation, the inspiration, passion that you have for the sport and what sparks it. What does it mean to you?
SPEAKER_00:To be honest, looking back, it's really hard for me to think back to childhood athletics and be like, this is the one moment where the spark hit. But I think from a very young age, the sport challenged me in ways that other sports, other activities, other parts of my life didn't. I think having a coach from a very young age that pushes you past what you think are your limits at the time and helps teach you how strong you can be and how resilient you can be really helped like guide my compass over the younger years of my athletic career. And I think part of my love for competing and for the sport was was just based on my gratitude and appreciation for all the cool things I got to do the sport. You know, my first international competition was in 2010. I was a freshman in high school. And basically from then until, you know, the Paris Olympics in 2024, I got to travel the world on a regular basis. I have friends from, you know, across the world. Got to, you know, travel to so many amazing places, meet coaches, referees, and, you know, just having this worldly view, one, gave me a big appreciation for history, and I was a history major in college. And two, I think just kind of I was always thinking about making the most of the opportunities that were given to me. I remember competing in places where I had familial and ancestral ties ties and you know my family members telling me that you know our ancestors that are no longer with us would have been like so proud to see like me competing and you know the places that they came from before ending up in America and stuff like that so I think yeah a huge part of that you know flame was just kind of being like I need to make the most of this opportunity because you know if I'm being honest there's probably other people out there in the world that have the same work ethic drive and talent as me that just weren't lucky enough to have the opportunities to train with high level people, to have good professional training development at a young age, to have a great college program around them, team mentors, coaches, sports meds, sports psych, nutritionists. Like there's just, you know, so many people that kind of helped me throughout the way. And I think that was something that made it feel more meaningful that it was even in an individual sport. I had this huge team behind the scenes that was like helping me get there. And I think that kept me one, super focused, but two, like super motivated to just kind of make the most of what was given to me. And I think that'll probably be the number one thing I want to focus on as like a coach and a club owner is making sure that, you know, all of the kids at the club that I run kind of understand the luck and the privilege to be able to train around, you know, other super dedicated high level athletes to have world class coaches to hopefully have, you know, top NCAA athletes, Olympic athletes coming for training camps, you know, bringing in people throughout the world, getting to compete First, the local level, regional, national, you know, all those opportunities, I think, can be taken for granted by very young kids. If it's not put into perspective, it's not explained very diligently that, you know, this is not the norm. So kind of passing along that appreciation to the next generation is something that is, I think, my biggest motivating factor now.
SPEAKER_03:So we've touched on your experience with your coach growing up. and as well as now your experience coaching. And one of the things that I think applies here is, because I don't know if it's fencing specific or individual sports specific, but the coach-student relationship is so intimate, right? And at least in my experience, I think it might be an individual sport thing, but it affords this opportunity to really shape someone as a person. So it gives me all the confidence in you You're going to be a great coach, not just because of obviously the fencing knowledge and skill that you bring to the table, but the fact that you have this desire and willingness to shape people for the better. And I think that's a really important quality. But beyond that, how is coaching and your experience coaching sort of shaped your view of the sport? Has it changed in the times you were purely an athlete or has it not really changed anything and you've just been able to bring that athlete experience into the coaching portion
SPEAKER_00:yeah I would say it's definitely coaching has definitely changed my athletic perspective and life like dramatically I would say that as a kid when you have a coach that's pushing you and you're trying to learn new things right when the when the light clicks and things start to work out you feel really good about yourself and you're so happy it's very hard to then kind of step back and pay attention to all the things that led to the moment you know your parents your friends your significant others your support staff, it's very hard to kind of show that there were a lot of things that led to this moment of like kind of light turning on. But as a coach, the last few years, you know, both a college coach when I was in Boston and as a club coach in New York City, the moment when you see like a kid who's been struggling or losing or like just things are not working out and you can see that they want it, their heart, they're working hard, you know, they're putting in the right ideas, they're focused, they're well behaved. But for some reason, it just hasn't clicked yet. And they're looking around. some of their friends and teammates, it's clicking for them. And you just see this kind of look of like despair and frustration and helplessness. And then when that light clicks, you know, and you just, it's like, it's like kind of like the reborn, like that to me is like the greatest thing I've ever seen. Just kind of seeing how much excitement and joy and energy then start coming out of the kid. They start winning, things start, you know, making more sense. They start adapting a better strategy. They start being more tricky. And when all that kind of falls into place As a coach, I think it's the greatest feeling in the world.
SPEAKER_02:I can totally agree. I don't have as much coaching experience as you. Because the lights never clicked? Yeah, the lights never clicked for me. No, but tough. Left him hanging. Sorry, sorry, sorry. You got his vote, man. You got his vote. It's two for one. Sorry, sorry, sorry. No, but really, I got a coach at the NCAA level for about three years and had some club life. level coaching experience as well. And I really, one of the things that I describe to people is one of the reasons I love coaching is because you mentioned it with regard to yourself as a student and as a coach, you know, when you, when you have someone in your life that shows you and helps you discover that you're capable of more than you understand or more than you thought, even if you, or more than you believed, even if you thought it, you know, That's a really powerful moment for someone. And I, you know, at Air Force, I had a very, very touching experience where there was a fencer who came on, and this fencer didn't have the opportunity prior to college to get to compete against high-level fencers. And when they did have that opportunity, they didn't win enough bouts to get to that point. But, you know, at the Air Force Academy, especially at the time, there wasn't a very deep team, and, you know, that meant that this fencer was going to be fencing these high level people, which is great from an opportunity perspective, but really challenging because all of a sudden you're fencing, you're in the deep end, right? You're fencing some sharks or swimming with sharks. And there was a moment where this fencer went undefeated on a team of national team members across US and other countries as well. Must have been a good coach. Lucky coach. But watching the light and everything and all the gears line up correctly on that given day, it gives me goosebumps to think about now. And as moments like that, especially when you're coaching very, very developmental level athletes in their youth and teenage years, that's when those moments, those clicks can happen a lot more often and they're a lot more impactful down the long run. It's awesome. You're going to change some kids' lives, Eli. I hope so. Yeah, thanks. And thank you for being so candid in these answers. It's important. Steven has some good questions here regarding coaching. One of them is just in general about purchasing your home club. And I want you to talk about that. That's big news. Just dropped last week, if I'm correct, right? Yeah. Yeah, just dropped last week. So obviously you're in the middle of it. We were talking before the show and you mentioned that you guys just hosted your first camp and you're starting day one of real practice next week. But overall, you know, you've been kind of. bouncing around for some time and now to come back home in a very poetic way. What does it mean to you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I would say poetic is definitely the perfect word for it. The location of Zeta Fencing is not the exact same space that I grew up at. It has moved to a larger location like right next door, just right down the street. But all the artwork is still the same. The lockers are the same. It still has this kind of, you know, ancient European renaissance kind of feel to it. And just walking in the doors like it gave me goosebumps. You know, I was like, wow, the first time I laid eyes on these was I was like seven or eight years old. I spent all my formative years like coming here, you know, training here, learning here, pushing myself here. You know, so much of my life was shaped in the walls of this club. So to be able to go back home, especially with my fiance, soon to be wife, you know, for us to purchase this club and to take over and for me to kind to be able to dedicate my life towards passing that along to the next generation. I think poetic is the best word. My childhood coach, Doran, you know, I've talked to him about it at length. He's really happy about it. You know, I think that I'm going to need a little bit of time to kind of figure out some of the logistics involved with the club operations aspect of the sport. But in terms of the preparation and the training, like I got a plan. I have a philosophy. I'm ready. I'm ready to go all in. So to anyone else out there, you know, I'd say give me some time. But our kids, our kids were coming.
SPEAKER_02:That's awesome. No, thanks. Thanks for the pitch there. And it really is poetics only where that comes to mind. Just I remember growing up and seeing Zetta fencing just always on the top of the podium. Your generation was incredibly strong and there were men and women fencers. They were both on the you know, winning side of things and to see, you know, someone from that OG group, right, come back to take the reins. It's cool. All right, Stewie, take us to the next one.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I wanted to talk about in your experience, well, now we're on coaching, but in your experience coaching at, you know, NCAA club level, these various organizations that you've coached for, how have those experiences been different? Do you have a preference? What have you learned? What's different about them?
SPEAKER_00:I wouldn't say I have a preference at this point in time. Maybe someday I'll have a stronger preference, but I would say from coaching at an elite program like Harvard where you have a lot of national champions, you have people competing at the world level, a lot of coaching is around maintenance and structure and helping them maintain where they've been, maybe making small jumps, but you're taking in kids who are highly motivated, you know, very hardworking, very successful already and just trying to get them, you know, an inch higher. And, you know, those jumps are much harder and they are meaningful. But part of me feels like I can make a bigger impact on people's lives, kind of working with the younger generations. Something that I've told parents a lot recently is that I'm in the business of making pyramids out of their kids, you know, takes a long time to create like a very good structure and a very good kind of outcome requires a very wide and strong foundation but you know in order to get to the very tip where you know it becomes you know stable for life able to weather like strong you know events able to kind of withstand a lot of hardship it really comes down to that strong foundation and for any kids at my club that might be listening to this we're about to do a lot of footwork because that's the that's the basis that's the foundation of saber fencing so you know nobody can say that that just came out of nowhere because um you heard it here first that uh footwork is uh that's that's the foundation of everything
SPEAKER_03:well this is definitely one pyramid scheme that i will absolutely buy into
SPEAKER_02:i like that nice one um and frankly you know great fundamentals to have we've been having a lot of conversations about footwork even on the senior men's epee side of things in new york And it's such a fundamental piece of training that so many people, you know, as you get better at the sport, many people like to trick themselves into thinking they need to do it less because they have already done it a lot. When in reality, you should probably do it more because that probably brought a lot of the success that you had earlier on. Anyways.
SPEAKER_03:No,
SPEAKER_02:no, no, no, you got this. I'm
SPEAKER_03:still going? All right. Well, taking a step back from the coaching, getting back into the fencing aspect of it, as someone who's climbed the mountain, had an incredible career, something that Ari and I have only dreamed of doing that we can't speak on, what was your formula to succeed? Obviously, you can't, even in an hour conversation, you couldn't break down all of it. But if you had to give the SparkNotes version, what was your formula philosophy or training or, you know, what do you attribute your individual success to?
SPEAKER_00:Honestly, I think a lot of it for me came down to how many of the small details involved with training and stuff that I paid attention to, especially in college. I think that I was probably on the earlier side compared to a lot of my generation in terms of focusing a lot on nutrition, hydration, you know, if physical therapy, sports psychology, different types of sports med techniques to recover, active recovery on the weekends, making sure I was utilizing all of the options and help that I had, which some people don't kind of utilize all those. I never really thought of myself as more like talented or physically dominant than a lot of other people in the sport, but I think I paid a lot of attention to the small details behind the scenes. I think a lot of it came down to being a little bit more focused and mentally present at practice. I was big on staying off social media when I was at practice and making sure that, you know, I had times where I was having fun, had times where I was disconnecting, but also had times where I was super serious, you know, to anyone out there that has ever trained with me. I'm not the easiest to train with. I'm sure you guys have heard stories. I could be a lot sometimes. I understand that. And I think that being self-aware is part of the fix. But the other part is that I always believed that in order to train well myself, I needed to be a good teammate and train the other people around me at a good level. We give them good training, they get better, they give me good training, and this kind of circle kind of keeps repeating itself. But, you know, I definitely was a little over the top sometimes at practice. So, you know, no one's perfect, but I'd like to think that I took some time and some energy to kind of help those around me over the years. So hopefully that makes up for me being a sometimes
SPEAKER_03:more than makes up for it i would say
SPEAKER_02:yeah i know
SPEAKER_03:or at least that's how i justify it in my head too
SPEAKER_02:i'm just gonna which of my training partners you ask i'm just gonna say i'm being eli next time like hey dude eli's eli said he did it and it worked so um i'm also a pain anyways um you know what that answer really highlights to me is that what set you apart is your mentality it seems to be your your presence in terms of being mentally and physically present throughout your training and that probably bleeds right into competition and you know that's something that i really want to talk about here you know i think we should talk about the olympics but before then i want to highlight you know a really large moment and i know you love to joke that i'm a world champion i just want to highlight that there are different levels to So I was a world champion at the 17 and under age group, which is great. It shows that you have potential. The U-20 age group, I was not a world champion in, but the U-20 age group, it shows that you also have potential, but it's like the ceiling is a little higher than the 17-year-old. And it shows that you can really make the jump if things go right for you. You won the world championships at the U-20, but then most recently in 2023, you won in Milan, the Senior World Championships, which is the second highest individual honor you can have, if not tied for the highest individual honor in our sport, right? The... the list only increments by one a year, right? And you skip it on Olympic year. So there aren't that many senior world champions out there. And you just gave us what you claim to be this, you know, didn't claim it, but answered it as a, as the formula mentally. And I think that translates into a lot of what we saw at tournaments like that, which is mental grit. And I guess if you could speak to any of that experience and what it was like for you to bring it all together in one really amazing day. I remember watching this live on my computer going wild. Uh, my family was watching it in Houston going wild. They know you as well as you know, but you probably had a lot of people rooting for you that day. And that was, that was a really big moment in USA fencing history in your career. And clearly you just, you attribute a lot of that to the way you prepared in training, but tell us about competition day. Like, what was that like? Or are even leading up to it, you know?
SPEAKER_00:Um, I mean, to be honest, like leading up to it, like vibes were not good. Um, I've had a really bad, had a really bad season leading up to it in 2023. Um, I felt like the, the feeling that other people got against me when I got on the strip with them was like fading away from a little bit of the fear that maybe I had kind of helped develop the few years before when I was like super consistently making top eights at all the senior world cops. So, um, Vibes were not good. But I do think that there's a time to overtrain and there's a time to be more smart with your training. And I'd always like to think that in terms of preparing your body to take the grueling conditions that it takes, I think that I prepared really well for the training camp, the two-week training camp we did in Orleone before that. And that was the hardest training camp I've done in my life. We were just going at it all day, every day. We had a great, great group of guys at our Airbnb We were having a blast, working hard, pushing ourselves in the heat. And I just remember thinking to myself, like, wow, like every day I was like, there's probably very few people out there that are going to be willing to put their body on the line like this. And a lot of people were like, oh, maybe you're training too hard before world championships. And I'm like, listen, like I'm losing all the time this season. And, you know, what do I have to lose? You know, people people maybe stop believing me in a little bit. But yeah, I mean, that training camp was was was killer. And then, you know, a lot of my greatest competition results have come when I actually have harder paths. And I think that I just, I saw the bracket from the 64. I had just like the bracket from hell, just like world champion, Olympic champion in every round. And I think a part of me was like, you know, if people expect you to lose, like there's a lot less pressure. I think I started a little slowly, but as the day went on, you know, talking even, you know, last week at this camp, I was running with Ed Zeta with Gigi Semele, who's multiple time world champion, multiple time individual Olympic medalist, multiple time team Olympic medalist. He's a legend. And I fenced him in the 16 in his home country. And he made some comment when we were getting lunch this week. He's like, oh man, like I beat you the time before that. I was feeling good. It was my home country, but you were just like touched by God that day. And hearing comments like that, it just makes me laugh because, you know, I went into the competition day with the same mentality I always had, you know, do your best, prepare well, you know, control the controllables, ignore the rest, you You know, things started to kind of pick up throughout the day. I had a really tough 15-14 win in the 32 against Gu. Ran at him off the line on 14-14. He tried to hit me in prep. I took close distance parry. He started going crazy. In the 16, I fenced some melee. I had a really good match. He had beat me the last time we had fenced before that. But, you know, it was in his host country. People were cheering against me. I kind of used that as motivation. The biggest hurdle was definitely the top eight bout against Ha. is the only guy in my career I could never beat. He beat me so many times. I even lost count. It got to the point where people were printing out posters of his face and putting them up at the club, in the locker room. Everyone had jokes about me losing to Hawk. Every tournament, it was just him. For a while, somehow, just the only time in my life I beat him. It just happened to be in the top eight. Made it to the medal rounds, and boom, nothing to lose. I think I was down 13-7 against Salagi in the semifinal. finals once again in my head I'm like you know everyone expects you to lose might as well do some crazy stuff somehow it worked out I still don't know how and then in the final I was just I was feeling good I was feeling better than I ever had in my life um went up against the current senior world champion Sandro Bazzazze who just uh just won worlds in Tbilisi a couple weeks ago his
SPEAKER_02:home country
SPEAKER_00:yeah and you know I just uh probably the best battle of offense in my life just you know from start to finish was just on my stuff my footwork was sharp my reactions were were fast. I was moving like crazy. And, you know, there's not much more like science or tricks behind it. Sometimes things just click in the right way at the right time. I really wish that somehow I had figured out how to make that click during my three individual Olympic Games appearances. But you don't get to pick and choose when you when you have the day of your life. So I'm glad at least it was in a big moment like that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it was great. And that leads right into our next question, honestly, which is about the Olympics and tough one it's true and you know if you're willing to share kind of how that experience has you know left an impact on your shape to you because as you mentioned you you had you know some level of you know it doesn't sound like regret at all honestly it just sounds like you know wish that it had gone better for you but at the same time deep inner sadness yeah deep inner sadness and at the same yeah you know it sounded not at all like regret and instead you know very very grounded in reality and what's happened and grateful for all the good that's happened that being said you know the Olympics is a mixed bag right because it's you were talking about results that you wish were better at the same time the experience itself is such an amazing accomplishment and it's in itself and you know you know how grueling it is to even get there and you know if you're open into talking about it we'd love to hear about the mental dichotomy between you know the pressure sadness and all the emotions that come along with those results as well as just the pride hopefully that you have for being someone who's done it three different times that's a lot of training that's a lot of commitment that's a lot of accomplishment that's a lot of Olympic games most people don't get to one man so if you're okay open it up about it talk about it yeah let's hear it then
SPEAKER_00:I'll start off with one little suggestion though for anyone who ever meets an Olympian ask them how they did and they say not so good do not respond with at least you made it there you know that's something right because that's just like that's just like the worst thing in the world I hear it so often and it just kills me inside so that's just like a little suggestion but in terms of the 2016 Rio Olympic Games I took a year off from college in between between my freshman and sophomore year of college to try to train full time, see if I could qualify. Ended up making it. A lot of people suggested that I don't take that time off. There was no team events. So it was pretty much only one spot open for the Americans because Darryl Homer had gotten silver at the Senior World Championships the year before. He was almost guaranteed a spot. So I was like, oh, finish your college career, go for Tokyo. But I took a chance. At the very worst case scenario, I always told myself, if I come back to college as a sophomore after training professionally for a full year, I'm going to dominate the college circuit even if I don't make the Olympics. So I always knew that worst case scenario hopefully was, you know, still OK. But, you know, I had some good results right before the Olympics in 2016. Definitely was not ready for the pressure. Definitely was not ready for the moment that at most tournaments you have a lot of kind of not warm up bouts, but in much larger tournaments you have a lot more rounds before you get to the really, really tough ones. And I've historically been who started off a little bit slower in the rounds of 64. And then I slowly, hopefully, get a little bit better throughout the day before I get to the tip top guys. So I think that probably the number one thing that hurt me across the Olympic Games was that I didn't have, you know, not warm up bouts, but I didn't have preparation bouts with lower level fencers before getting to the top guys. It just starts right from the gun with like everyone being elite in a small bracket of 32. So I definitely wasn't ready for for the Van Holst-Becky bout from Belgium in 2016. Fast forward to Tokyo in 2021, I'd had really good two seasons leading up to what was supposed to be the 2020 Olympics, finished the 2018 season number one in the world, got a medal at Senior Worlds, was feeling really good, meddling at a lot of competitions, making a lot of top eights, but pretty consistently competing for a spot to fence with the world's best in the medal rounds. And that's what I always told myself at these competitions. I was like, I'm not here to win. I'm here to compete to win, right? I think that, you know, coming and expecting to win or trying to win, it's a losing battle. I want to give myself an opportunity to compete with the best. If I compete with the best and I lose, I can go to sleep, you know, happy knowing that I did my job. But I definitely think that the COVID break and the lack of competitions and consistency definitely kind of impacted the flow of things a little bit. I got to the Tokyo Olympics, fenced a good friend, Kaido Streets, in the 32, had a really good match with him. And then in the 16, had one of the all-time greats, Jungwon Kim from Korea, multiple-time Olympic gold medalist, multiple-time world champion. He's done everything. I honestly don't think I fenced a bad bout. I just didn't do quite enough to take down one of the greatest of all time. So that's probably, out of my Olympics, the bout that I'm most OK with losing. If you can even say you're most okay with losing one of those bouts. And then Paris, you know, that was supposed to be the redemption one. You know, I was feeling good. I felt like the preparation was good. I felt like I was in the best shape of my life. I was just coming off my senior world title in 2023. I felt like the fear factor was back where people actually, you know, coming up on the strip against me, like had questions about whether or not they could beat me. And I felt like that psychological advantage had really helped me. Offense to 100%. Hungarian, Gimeshi. He wiped the floor with me, if I'm being honest. A lot of people had suggestions or ideas or theories about why I could never perform at the Olympics. I didn't buy into any of that. Sabre bouts are quick. You train for four or five years. You get a 10-minute, 15-minute match on the world stage. Fencing doesn't get a lot of global viewership. But at the Olympics, that's truly global viewership. everyone I ever knew growing up in the sport. I know everyone's watching. I know it's truly the pinnacle of the sport. And, you know, I have to just accept the fact that I wasn't able to kind of handle the pressure in the right way in terms of getting my best fencing out the first match of the day. Whereas in other competitions, I might have a few matches before I have to fence someone of that caliber in the later rounds. So, you know, it's still tough. Probably not as tough as the team event 44-44 44 loss in the top eight. That's probably the one that there's probably the touch that will keep me up for, for a large part of my life. But you do enough competitions, especially in individual sport, you gotta learn to lose. I tell that to all the parents and kids that I coach, you're gonna lose a lot more than you win. Sometimes you'll never win the tournament and you'll just come close. But if you don't know how to lose and you don't know how to overcome that, you gotta stop the sport. You know, it's just not for you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. No, that was, that I appreciate you opening up on that. And yeah, it's really important to be able to speak on moments like that with no regret. And I know you mentioned you don't have it. We don't hear it in your voice. You know, you've accepted what's happened. And I think deep down, you know that you're, you know, one of the best out there. out there and it just, sometimes it doesn't add up. Yeah, thanks.
SPEAKER_03:No, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Beautiful story. Yeah, do you want to jump into a lighter segment? That would be lovely.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, do you want to jump into the next segment or do you want to, okay.
SPEAKER_02:Up to you, Stevie. We're co-pilots here. But
SPEAKER_00:it's time to make an executive decision. Let's do it. Let's do it. If you've got more tough questions, you can send them my way. I'm open and emotional right
SPEAKER_02:now. It's fairly circular, right? Like most of the things we want to hear from you are just about your story, your journey, what set you apart, how you got here, what you love about the sport. You've answered all of it really well. You've been really articulate in your responses. I think
SPEAKER_01:anybody who's listening. People don't describe me as articulate that often, so I appreciate it. Yeah, it's
SPEAKER_02:because we got the mic in your face. You
SPEAKER_00:got the cameras. that little clip just for me sounds
SPEAKER_02:good but really you know I think anyone that's listening or watching right now will be able to get a really strong glimpse into what you think like and what your presence is because I think you're giving us a great idea right now
SPEAKER_03:and I'm digging
SPEAKER_02:it
SPEAKER_03:okay I do have one more question and it's much lighter but you know it's we like to talk about fans just to give us and everybody listening a better idea what do you what do you like outside of fencing you got any got anything you you do for fun you got any passions smoked meats any i
SPEAKER_00:don't know uh yeah i would say like outside of fencing where i'm like pretty difficult pretty stringent and like pretty like just strict about everything in the sport preparation competition wise um i'd like to think i'm pretty laid back in my everyday life um i honestly think the people that don't know me through the sport of fencing and only know me in my personal life probably have a lot of very hard time kind of understanding that behavioral shift um on a daily basis um i would say like recently my karen and i and our golden retriever jacks we love going out hiking in the wilderness finding a little lake for him to swim on um we just did a our our honeymoon traveling across uh traveling across europe having a little trip um just because we had a little downtime. I know it's not super normal before before the wedding, but we had a little time where we could kind of escape and just kind of, you know, go out into the wilderness and explore and kind of have a good time. I love Boston sports to my to my bone. You know, I would die for the Celtics and the Patriots. I like I like the Red Sox and the Bruins, but like the Celtics and the Patriots, those those are like two of my first true loves. So I'm definitely I love sports even outside of fencing, watching them fantasy football, you know, playing them. I like to stay active. Probably not the most, you know, crazy answer, but I like to think just down to earth, hanging out, you know. Good dude. Having a good time.
SPEAKER_02:I think we all like very similar stuff. So we're not looking for crazy. We're just looking for you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. You know, like, for example, you know, the first time I saw Ari in New York City, us and our girlfriends had a little picnic out in Long Island City. city with the dog just being outside snacks some good food you know some nice conversation yeah it's good enough for me
SPEAKER_02:yeah it was great it was relaxing we got to lay in the sun got to hang out till the sun started to go down it was just being outdoors is really really rejuvenating
SPEAKER_03:sunshine man yeah it's a good thing
SPEAKER_02:yeah all right
SPEAKER_03:please introduce the
SPEAKER_02:next segment Ari really all right so the second and The final segment of our show is called One Light Answers. And the thought behind this is just whatever off the top of your head, once it enters there, rip it, go. One word? No, no. One light as in. Oh, but it does not do one word. Yeah, I think we're coming up with some fencing-esque titles. But no, one light as in the first light that goes off in your head, you just spit it
SPEAKER_00:out. We're thinking like at bay speed or saber speed? Saber speed. speed okay so i really have to think fast yeah
SPEAKER_02:don't even think yeah rock paper scissors
SPEAKER_03:all right let's go steven oh you want me to start yeah yeah all right two favorite fencers all time go That's, oh,
SPEAKER_00:wow. Wow. This
SPEAKER_02:answer doesn't have to be glued to time. It could change tomorrow, but right now, what are your two favorite fencers that just come to mind?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, Aldo Montano, Aaron Salagi.
SPEAKER_02:All right. What is the favorite city of yours that you've gotten to fence in? Budapest. Okay, me too. I didn't say Budapest was my answer, but I love that place.
SPEAKER_03:It is a great answer. It's a great city. Anything in your fencing equipment bag that probably shouldn't be in there
SPEAKER_00:nothing that shouldn't be in there but I have a lot of little trinkets and like superstitious little things artifacts that have been there for like a decade that are like so gross and smelly at this point that people want me to throw them out but they're never leaving
SPEAKER_02:any examples
SPEAKER_00:they're all they're all like stupid little things from my childhood like a little gift from somebody a little something I found like none of them are like truly special like in terms of like the you know the worth lot or like so it's just like little things that I just have happened to throw in my bag over time and just transferred from fencing bag to fencing bag to fencing bag over the years. And, you know, like one of them is a little glass turtle that my coach gave me when I was like a young kid. I love turtles. One of them is like a little bracelet made out of like soda, soda caps that my sister made for me in like middle school. Like one is a bottle, a little bottle of hot sauce that's like so dusty now. But I used to put hot sauce on everything. So like they've been on my bag for has to be over 10 years now. And They stay in the never access part of the smaller pocket.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. That's a great answer. Who is the most challenging bout you've ever fenced? I think you've told us, but that might not be your answer here. Tournament or practice. It comes to mind. Hardest bout. Boom.
SPEAKER_00:Sengoku.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:So funny. This doesn't have to be fencing related, but best piece of advice you've ever received?
SPEAKER_00:I've gotten so much advice over the years. Maybe you didn't take it.
SPEAKER_03:Maybe it was like invest in Bitcoin in 2012 or something like
SPEAKER_00:that. I got that advice. Don't take yourself so seriously. I don't know. That's probably not the best advice I've ever gotten. We'll
SPEAKER_02:ride with it.
SPEAKER_00:Um... I think now you're taking yourself too seriously. It was great advice. Yeah, we'll just go with
SPEAKER_01:that. That's good for me. Okay.
SPEAKER_02:So you have to overtake the government of a small island nation and you have an unlimited budget, but your only assistance comes from the other members of any world championship team you've been on. Who do you think one person would give you the best odds of success or Olympic teams?
SPEAKER_00:Out of just the teammates that I've had for It's a men's saver. 100% Oleg Ochoki. Like, that's not even a question. Not even a question. He actually was my coach at the 2023 World Championships, but we made our first senior world team together in Budapest in 2013, and we were roommates. How they decided that, you know, junior high school Eli and, you know, college Oki would be good roommates, it was a blast. We, you know, he was a great mentor, became my coach and a great friend. So he, if If I need to go through some trouble, I'm bringing him. Great answer. Go hit him with the okie dokie. Shout out, okie dokie.
SPEAKER_03:Who was your dream fencing sponsor?
SPEAKER_00:Definitely Absolute Fencing. Shout out, Absolute. Honestly, most people would probably just say, oh, he has to say that he's sponsored by Absolute. But in my defense, I have a very clear memory, Sword in the Snow, SYC, University of New Hampshire. I was 10 years old in 2005. Gary's Absolute store is like tiny at this point. It's not some like, you know, world, you know, dominating company where it's like now, you know, all the top athletes are Absolute, you know, all the competition spots are Absolute. It was small back then. He took the time to fit me for a white jacket and a lame, explain it to my mom who was like unsure, you know, about the lefty stuff, about the shoes, whatever. He took the time to go through it with us. I remember this when I finished college and was looking for sponsorships and it was just a no-brainer to go with the Absolute best.
SPEAKER_02:That's awesome. And shout out to your sponsors still sponsored. Absolutely fencing. Although we are sponsored in this podcast is sponsored by pre or it's just awesome to highlight any level of support for any of the athletes, regardless of what their level is, but specifically at the highest level, you know, it takes a lot to do this sport from any type of investment time, mental, physical, and very, very much so. financial. So any level of support for the athletes is really gracious and respected by us here at the Direct Elimination Podcast. Eli, thanks for being on the show. And it was great to have you on and speak to your experience at every part of your journey, including this upcoming and currently in play one. So we would like to send you off by wishing you all the good luck and success in the world. with Zeta Fencing and we're really excited to, you know, track and see how that project develops over the next couple of years. We really believe in you and this was awesome.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no. Appreciate it, bro.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you for taking the time. Don't let anybody ever tell you you aren't articulate ever again. I appreciate that. Don't take that. You're so articulate. Dude, you guys got to stop. Are you blushing? A little bit. Honestly, maybe more than Milan. But yeah, thank you again best of luck in all your endeavors and in your wedding upcoming have a good time
SPEAKER_00:yeah congratulations thank you boys it's been a lot of fun getting to kind of talk shoot the just shoot the time with you guys yeah
SPEAKER_02:no man till next time yeah thanks see you later thanks so much of course guys
SPEAKER_03:be sure to visit the pre-ear USA shop link in our bio and buy yourself some sick pre-ear equipment
SPEAKER_02:thanks for tuning in make sure to like share and subscribe so that you can see more videos just like this.
